Discussion Forum
Original Subject Posting
| Firefly 517 restoration | Date
Posted: 12 Jun 10 12:06 |
| Well restoration begins. The old, decks are off and the hull looks nice an stiff with the exception of the underside where one side tank meet the hull. I have been reliably informed Eposeal is the stuff to soak into it having removed old screws etc? Is there a way to thin normal epoxy to do the same job? Then get inside the tank and glob epoxy along the seam? Sound ok? A few questions about re-decking. Its a Mk 1 and from what I gather from the drawings, there are two deck support layouts. Either fore-aft beams or width way beams? Looking at my boat, these beams are slightly too far forwards. How much of an issue does this create? Would it still measure? Any tips for re-decking? I have a wood called Meranti which is a hardwood, cheaper mahogany look alike so should blend in nicely. This is going to be used for the deck supports. I also have a number of other questions. . . Where is the best place to attach a forewards thwart? What woods are suitable for rubbing strips? Where can I get a rudder + stock from? Does anyone have a set of sails to sell me? Where can I get buoyency bags from? Can I Mk 4 the front (I.e just add a front buoyency tank, leaving the rest Mk1?) Sorry for the essay, thanks in advance for your help. |
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| Author: Tom Moore | Message ID: 279 |
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Replies to this subject
| Firefly 517 restoration | Date
Posted: 13 Jun 10 11:11 |
| Hi Tom, Several interesting questions. I am sure the technical Sec will have the answers for you. I understand that a bow tank is allowed for any of the Marks. Furthermore you may chose full hieght or have a space above it. This is because if you want to preserve the original jib halyard arrangement,(as per a Rotating mast) the tail of the halyard would be reflected back from the pulley at the head of the sail,down the forestay, (usually held in position by the tingles on the jib luff, through a hole in the foredeck/tack, round a pulley on the inner side if the stem and thence under the foredeck to a cleat and tensioning rack under the foredeck (on the starboard side.) The original rotating mast meant the halyard could not be led internally, and this system kept the halyard out of the way. The plans of different deck marks can be accessed via a link on this site. Hardwood and softwod is specified for certain functions but it has been pointed out that it is anachronistic, since this defines the biotype rather than the properties of the wood (ie Balsa is technically a hardwood) and other woods are almost unavailable (eg Rock Elm) or ethically unsound (certain rainforest mahoghanies etc) Ply, for structural knees has been discussed and I believe the technical committee are in the process of approving its use. The firefly since its early development has a history of making do for shortages, Aluminium decks and birchwood veneers for the hull come to mind, so I cannot foresee there being too much of a problem with your choices of wood. The "forward thwarts" are not in the construction plans,but there is a rule banning "Struts" within certain tolerances. In practice if your strut is on, or forward of the plate pivot bolt, I think it is in class. Most boats put a "hardwood" beam, about 2"x1" from the top of the plate and out to the wooden reinforcment that strenthens the hull at the point where the shroud is attatched. As an aside here I would highly reccomend through bolting your shroud plate as in an original hull they will be attached to a brass plate held by screws. Which will almost certainly have "Nail disease" of "zincification" by now. If you still have a reynolds mast, it would be a shame to break it by losing a shroud. Bouyancy bags can be got from Crewsaver in Gosport. The correct shape of stern bag is a bit of an issue at present, as they sold the last bags to me, and have lost the design somewhere! As I live in Gosport, if they ask you for a temlate, I can help with that. (Let me know if you need this) The tanks are worth keeping in commision. The give more flotaion in a capsize, and if you take them out they are lined with "Black Varnih, (Varnish + Bitumen I think, that is a devils mixture to remove, and stains anything it is exposed to even more than a BP oil pipeline.) You will need inspection hatches however that can be removed if ever you want to dry the tanks out. If you choose to Mark3 the side decks, sitting in the side tanks I believe encourages them to spring leaks, and as such it would be better ultimately to go to Mark4 if you choose this pathway. Enjoy yourself!! |
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| Author: Michael Brigg | Reply ID: 799 |
| Firefly 517 restoration | Date
Posted: 13 Jun 10 21:02 |
| Thanks for your help Michael. I do not have a rotating mast (but the brass mushroom thing it rotates on has just came off the boat.) I do however have two shroud plate attachment block things on the hull. Could someone measure the disance from either bow or stern so I know which set of holes the brass plates are meant to go in (and so where my deck holes need to be). I plan to keep the side tanks in place but need to put holes in as the back port corner has seperated from the hull. Will this need internal glassing or would epoxy + filler do the job (along with eposeal on the outside). Realistically how difficult is it to get a watertight bow tank? I like the idea of one but don't want to fudge the boat up doing it. Having started work on the centreboard case, I can see a crack on the starboard side. Although it can't move would a thin batten to stop it twisting and seal it up be permitted? There are two verticle struts already in place, can I leave these in and add my diagonal batten as per the diagram? What I'm asking is whether the case diagram in the rules document are guidelines or absolutes? Tom |
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| Author: Tom Moore | Reply ID: 800 |
| Firefly 517 restoration | Date
Posted: 14 Jun 10 10:29 |
| Hi Tom, Regarding a rudder and stock. I bought a stock from Pinnel and Bax a Ceevee it is designed for a Europe but fits a firefly. The blade either Milanes (expensive) or look for second hand one. The buoyancy bags are standard Crewsaver 36" X 12" you can get from most chandlers I had similar problem with side tanks coming away from hull. I tried all sorts without having to glass on the outside. But a good epoxy fillet should be ok. In the end I replaced the side tanks as is subject to lots of load when not being too graceful in the boat! If trying to thin epoxy warm it up becomes a lot more runny. Also make sure wood is nice and warm with a heat gun. But is never as runny as Eposeal. It is worth adding a front tank as stops all the water slopping to the front. If you are replacing decks can be done in one piece of wood and is a lot easier. If keeping decks needs to be done in 2 sections. Involves lots of cardboard and making an accurate template! I have redecked using maranti from Robbins and i think looks good. Keep firing the questions! Cheers Will |
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| Author: Will Mason | Reply ID: 801 |
| Firefly 517 restoration | Date
Posted: 14 Jun 10 15:07 |
| Sorry, I don't know what an 'epoxy fillet' is. Is eposeal structurally as good as normal west epoxy? Its just I was going to try and get it to run into some of the cracks to glue them back together again. Presumably when (if) making a fore tank, It will need a stiffening batten(s) into which I could fix the centreplate block? What is the best way of fixing it under the deck? I could put a cross ways batten in but if the deck diagram needs to be followed it will mess everything up. £204 for an 'economy' rudder blade is a bit steep. What about the white ones rondar boats have? Tom |
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| Author: Tom Moore | Reply ID: 802 |
| Firefly 517 restoration | Date
Posted: 14 Jun 10 15:55 |
| Hi Tom, Couple of quick things. The Mk 4 bow tank is not the same as the bow tank fitted to mk 3, 2, and 1's. The Mk 4 tank can only be used with the rest ot the Mk 4 layout. (the other is easier to retro fit anyway) On the Epoxy question, Eposeal in a thin penetrative sealing epoxy and is not designed for glueing / bonding, only as an initial sealer (think of clear primer) As Will describes, I would try and run gently warmed expoxy (std West or SP 106 / 320) to the inside of the tanks. Once all the varnish is removed put a fillet between the verticle of the tank and the hull floor. Fillets are pretty easy to do - see here: http://www.clcboats.com/shoptips/stitch_glue/fillets.html or here for tech data on the amount of filler - http://www.gurit.it/Files/Documents/English%20Datasheets/SP%20106_v10.pdf really though, just think about making meringues, once your epoxy / filler mixture forms stiff peaks you are ready to rock. Use masking tape to get a neat edge to the fillet and wipe off any spills excess before it dries as it ti far easier than later! Hope this helps Steve |
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| Author: Steven Greaves | Reply ID: 803 |
| Firefly 517 restoration | Date
Posted: 14 Jun 10 20:04 |
| The white ones on the Rondars are made by rondar as are the stocks. Not sure how much they but suspect less than milanes! |
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| Author: Will Mason | Reply ID: 804 |
| Firefly 517 restoration | Date
Posted: 15 Jun 10 19:24 |
| Cheers for all your help guys, much appreciated (please keep it coming). For anyone else interested, from rondar stocks are £127, blades £150. That means if anyone has a spare of either I would happily buy it. The decks are already off. I put in the front thwart (two struts) today. Any way which I can upload pics? I'm not convinced with the front tank. It's going to be difficult to get it watertight. If someone has plans for it I could be tempted. . . Tom |
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| Author: Tom Moore | Reply ID: 805 |
| Firefly 517 restoration | Date
Posted: 16 Jun 10 10:55 |
| Hi Tom Great to hear of another boat being made seaworthy I have an old suit of sails which might be of use once you get going. Where are you based? If you are near some other Firefly owners, a few minutes looking over your boat will help with loads of your queries (and raise several new ones!) There are also several other Fireflies being mended. Will she be ready for the nationals? |
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| Author: Chris Guy | Reply ID: 806 |
| Firefly 517 restoration | Date
Posted: 20 Jun 10 10:03 |
| Hi Tom, If decks are off well worth going for bow tank as not worth the effort and alot easier to fit with decks off. Mark on the inside of the hull where you want the tank all around the hull. Get a big piece of stiff cardboard and make a template a bit of trail and error. Get a good fit to your mark. Then cut the wood! Use a good big expoy fillet on the inside. While applying pressure from the back to keep the tank forced into the bow. When the epoxy has gone off add small neat epoxy fillet to the outside of the tank. Suggest cutting hole for hatch and bungs before the tank is in place. Am sure some there are some other tips from the like of Mr Greaves, Mr Tait, Mr Chisholm etc. I have a Mk 3 with a bow tank if you want to see how fitted etc. Based in Twickenham. There will be lots of variants at Lymington and Hamble in the coming weeks. Cheers Will |
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| Author: Will Mason | Reply ID: 810 |
| Firefly 517 restoration | Date
Posted: 23 Jun 10 15:01 |
| Thanks again for all your replies. I am based in North Wales (Prestatyn) but will be sailing the boat at uni in Falmouth - so Restronguet. I have had a look at some boats down there for inspiration, layout ideas etc. I will happily put a bow tank in, but would someone measure the distance from transom at which the tank needs to go. Another thing really slowing progress is the old deck support battens were placed differently to those on the Mk1 diagram. Are these a guide (and so I can simply replicate) or absolute, in which case I need to re-design/ measure etc. Will, as I am so far away, would you be able to email me some pics of your tank/ foreward area (including deck beams etc if possible. My address is tom203@exeter.ac.uk. Chris, if you could email me some info on those sails, how much you want, where you based etc that would also be great. One more question, the boat has no triangular block with a groove for the mast (which is at the aft edge of the deck). Does anyone have any pics and/or measurements of how it all goes so I can make 517 one. Thanks again. Tom |
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| Author: Tom Moore | Reply ID: 818 |
| Firefly 517 restoration | Date
Posted: 24 Jun 10 12:56 |
| Diagram 3 in the 1998 year book shows the bow tank as fitted to a Mark 1-3 to have a "Single vertical bulkhead" at 2750mm +/-25mm from the AFT side of the transom. It may be full hieght, or if you are retaining a facility to use a rotating mast gib halyard, (or want some storage space for warps, anchor, picnic & beach equipment, toiletries,dry kit,jib stick etc) a horizontal bulkead at 100 +/- 25mm below the deck/sheer level. I don't understand your question about the mast gate. If you have old decks, the gate will have a round section with a diameter @ 20-30mm wider than the mast section. This allowed a round collar around the rotating mast to articulate within the gate, whilst fixing the position of the oval mast section. If you have now got a fixed section, then the gate needs only to be the width of the mast section, +/- your design tolerance, usually @1mm for a snug but manageable fit with minimum sideways movement, and sufficient fore and aft tolerance to allow mast rake and up to 8mm movement for mast bend etc. As I understand it The gate has to be closed at the back, and any fore/aft restriction (max movement 8mm) may not be altered during racing. Diagram 2A (Mk1 decks) appears to allow altrnative deck beam arrangements, in transverse or sagittal planes. The transverse ones are at 2580 and 3090mm +/-15mm It doesnt specify positions for the saggital "alternative" beams which are drawn at approx 200mm from the centreline. The deck beams are specified as 17x40mm min section (at the centre line.) |
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| Author: Michael Brigg | Reply ID: 819 |
| Firefly 517 restoration | Date
Posted: 28 Jun 10 20:10 |
| Hi Tom, I will take some pics and e-mail them over. Cheers Will |
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| Author: Will Mason | Reply ID: 825 |
| Firefly 517 restoration | Date
Posted: 05 Jul 10 09:39 |
| Tom, Finally e-mailed some pics to you. Sorry taken so long. Cheers Will |
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| Author: Will Mason | Reply ID: 830 |
| Firefly 517 restoration | Date
Posted: 23 Jul 10 21:34 |
| Restoration is on-going. The boat now has both for and aft thwarts in place, the hull is faired and varnished. The working area has been painted with two coats. The ruined old decks are off revealing an 'illegal' king plank (now been replaced). Hoping to get the rest of the deck supports in place by the end of this weekend. Are the length-ways or width-ways considered better? I am currently making the template for the bow tank ply sheet. I have attempted to make a rudder blade but I am having difficulty getting the various bits to bond properly (the epoxy seems to go gooey and never set properly?). Do people have any suggestions for getting a decent aerofoil section to it? Secondly, my rudder (to be) was going to be a fixed one with the tiller fixed directly to it (no stock). The rules mention a stock but could the stock be the same bit of wood as the blade (difficult to describe). Will this be acceptable? I have a mast step ready to fit but without a boat to measure its difficult to know where it should go (same with shroud fittings). Would someone be able to measure the location (from centre plate bolt to mid mast step and transom to shroud 'u' bolts) of both of these for me please? Thanks again to Will for the pics, definately given my a clearer idea - neat looking bow tank as well. Chris, would you be able to give me some mor details on your sails to tom203 AT exeter DOT ac DOT uk. I cannot find a way to upload pictures but if anyone is interested please email me and I will send some pics straight away. Tom |
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| Author: Tom Moore | Reply ID: 870 |
| Firefly 517 restoration | Date
Posted: 26 Jul 10 00:18 |
| Hi Tom I'll email you about the sails and hang on to them for you in the meantime... follow the link to about the firefly>technical info on the left and scroll all the way down, there are a range of mast step measurements there (I put my mast step in to allow adjustment within this range) do check for reference where your c/bolt is, and also ensure that your mast sits in the mast gate at the reqired distances as per the rules! fully fixed rudders with 'integrated' stock are permitted. some people persist with these even after the embarrassing spectacle of high speed transom removal! |
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| Author: Chris Guy | Reply ID: 872 |
| Firefly 517 restoration | Date
Posted: 02 Aug 10 23:06 |
| Hi, I have some hull sections I rescued from a scrap firefly if you need any laminates. Chris | |
| Author: Chris Bracey | Reply ID: 900 |
