Discussion Forum
Original Subject Posting
| Updated Rules published | Date
Posted: 22 Jul 10 21:55 |
| The rules changes that we will be asking you to vote on at the AGM are detailed as a news item and linked on the homepage many thanks again to Mark and Tony Thresher and all the others involved in this project - which has actually been ongoing for some years! please use this thread to ask any questions or express any opinions to help others make their mind up also have a read through and alert us to any 'typos' that we can adjust prior to the AGM tin had adjusted...awaiting incoming fire... |
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| Author: Chris Guy | Message ID: 298 |
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Replies to this subject
| Updated Rules published | Date
Posted: 23 Jul 10 09:34 |
| Chris, These look great and obviously have taken a lot of hard work. They're loads clearer and less ambiguous than the existing rules. My only concern is :- A.8 CLASS RULES INTERPRETATION A.8.1 Interpretation of class rules shall be made by the RYA who shall consult with the NFA. There was no similar rule previously. Do I interpret this rule as "the only organisation qualified to interpret the rules is the RYA"? If this is the case, we can't settle measurement issues at events! This creates too much reliance on a bureacratic slow organisation that lacks understanding. Can we weaken this rule to something like:- A.8 CLASS RULES INTERPRETATION A.8.1 If required, the RYA will provide a definitive interpretation of the class rules and may consult with the NFA. This is more consistent with the current unwritten rule - the RYA has the last say. Regards, Nige |
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| Author: Nigel Wakefield | Reply ID: 864 |
| Updated Rules published | Date
Posted: 23 Jul 10 13:03 |
| Much clearer. Think C.5.4(b) should read 'one OR two' not 'one OF two' Should we propose an amendment to the 'magnetic' compass? If we are tidying it makes sense to do this at the same time I think. |
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| Author: Steven Greaves | Reply ID: 865 |
| Updated Rules published | Date
Posted: 25 Jul 10 23:37 |
| Hi I await the Tech sec's input on these points (and I'm sure there will be more), however, for info I agree about the typo in 5.4b 'of' should be 'or' and I'm sure we will change that On Nige's point about 'interpretation' - this I think comes from our being an 'adopted' class and the option given to a scrutineer by the ISAF equipment rules of sailing (ERS) to appeal to a higher power to settle 'doubt' about interpretation. The propsed rule as I read it actually requires the RYA to consult with us on matters of interpretation if somebody appeals to them about something. The option of not having the RYA adjudicate is not available to us while we remain an adopted class. Stop me if I'm talking rubbish! I don't see it as a bar to us sorting out minor issues at events, after all, we do the scrutineering! I agree that the compass thing should be addressed but I don't think we are going to do it this year (the AGM will go on long enough as it is!). It should be an easy one to do another year. For what it's worth, my personal interpretation of the current status quo is that there is no other type of compass than a magnetic one and a magnetic compass with a digital LCD readout of heading is fine! One that calculates stuff for you and tells you when to tack is more than just a compass and, along with GPS etc, is not permitted for racing under the 'if it doesn't say you can...' principle One eagle eyed viewer has spotted a minor yet important omission in D8.1, little corrections like these we will smooth over if necessary prior to the AGM and report back. We are also in discussion about a couple of minor measurement items with the RYA which may require a couple of reference points to be changed - we will make sure this is done is a way that doesn't affect the end results, and report back as necessary at the AGM thanks and keep the feedback going... |
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| Author: Chris Guy | Reply ID: 871 |
| Updated Rules published | Date
Posted: 30 Jul 10 12:38 |
| Hi, by way of update and also after some input from elsewhere.... 1. The typo in c 5.4b has been done, thanks 2. The measurement points I mentioned at the end were hull length and sail corner points. Hull length under modern definitions needs to include the moulding overlap so we obviously need to measure this for rondars and include a suitable correction. Not a big issue. On the sails, currently we define luff lengths (etc) as starting from the intersection of the lines projected from the edges of the sails, we need to adjust this to meet the modern definition which is more closely aligned with the adge of the actual fabric as it bends around the fixing. We are just checking with Hydes to see if the way they make the sails fits with our measurements and adjust them as necessary. Rest assured, the idea is to ensure that nothing changes about sails or hulls! 3. To clarify Nigels query - it is only really fair that there is one body who has the final say over rules interpretations. It wouldn't really be right if individual measurers were able to have total carte blanche to sign off contraversial boats as they sought fit. If something needs interpreting, like whether a repair has stiffening qualities, they should ask the RYA, who in turn are required to consult with the NFA in making a ruling. It really is the only way to do things and the RYA will only give a view if they are asked. A valuable point to raise though, and in general I think the rules are pretty good at maintaining consistency across boats built over a 60 year time span! 4. Magnetic compasses. I checked with the RYA and their definition of magnetic includes only compasses with a card in liquid or a needle.I agree that we do need to have this debate but I don't think we have time to draft a new definition now and dissemitate it properly before the AGM. By all means we can take a straw poll of opinion 5.Finally shroud attachments. [C5.5 (3) and D8.1]We copied the old definition about how your shrouds should be attached from the old rules but added for 'Mk 1,2,3' to clarify that you can't lead the shrouds themselves through the deck of a Mk 4 and shackle them to shroud plates inside the hull. Shroud plates on a Mk 4 measured under the new rules should be fixed the outside of the skin or else use U bolts like on a rondar. Again, no change intended so i think we propose to keep the wording here. Well done if you are still reading, please add your comments because it is really useful! I'll post an updated version as we go along |
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| Author: Chris Guy | Reply ID: 881 |
| Updated Rules published | Date
Posted: 30 Jul 10 13:18 |
| Does that mean Tacktics are illegal? | |
| Author: Will Mason | Reply ID: 882 |
| Updated Rules published | Date
Posted: 30 Jul 10 14:09 |
| i noticed that bit about the compass earlier and the Tacktic doesn't use a magnet; it uses a flux gate to work out the direction. If we are to go by the RYA definition then they are out. |
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| Author: Andy Reynolds jones | Reply ID: 885 |
| Updated Rules published | Date
Posted: 30 Jul 10 14:13 |
| (i forgot to add) that it would be a shame as i've only just gotten to grips with using mine | |
| Author: Andy Reynolds jones | Reply ID: 886 |
| Updated Rules published | Date
Posted: 31 Jul 10 00:25 |
| I presume the "magnetic Compass" issue is more to do with keeping sattelite navigation systems out of the racing, since these could have far more influence on tactics (especially in tidal and sea races/nationals) than a Tack tick. The Electronic compass is really no different from the magnetic system, perhaps a little more expensive for much greater accuracy, but that said a wrist watch size sattelite system is virtually the same cost. Personally I'm dead against a sattelite system for sailing in races. Whatever happened to the old astral system and dead reckoning. Seriously though I reckon Tack ticks seem to be so universal they would be difficult to outlaw now, but lets not go down the way of onboard sattelite computers? |
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| Author: Michael Brigg | Reply ID: 888 |
| Updated Rules published | Date
Posted: 31 Jul 10 13:03 |
| As I write this, there's a piccie of Sando and his tacktick across the top of my browser - oh the irony. A fluxgate compass uses "permeable magnetic material, to directly sense the direction of the horizontal component of the earth's magnetic field". I quote wikipedia. Ergo a tacktick is a magnetic compass. Thanks to the RYA's great interpretation we collectively have a problem. |
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| Author: Nigel Wakefield | Reply ID: 890 |
| Updated Rules published | Date
Posted: 31 Jul 10 14:49 |
| Ditto Michael Brigg, as I alluded to in an earlier thread. Whilst I did give the Tacktick some thought, I don't see them in the same light as a GPS device where you can plot positions ie. 'ping' the startline. Tackticks seem to be in widespread use in the Firefly fleet and although I don't have one/can't currently afford one, it would seem a rather draconian step to prohibit them now. I would however like to see the compass rule worded to ensure that hi tech gadgets are explicitly prohibited and be rigourous enough to be futureproof(whether they be integrated into any manner of device ie watch, mobile phone, apple thingy etc.); example as per Laser class rule. |
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| Author: | Reply ID: 891 |
| Updated Rules published | Date
Posted: 31 Jul 10 20:42 |
| Hi good old RYA with their definition of a fluxgate capacitor... Even the XOdugouts I race in each week have tac-tiks (aka digital readouts for those that need reading glasses) we don't allow GPS (far to difficult to read the paperwork on how to use them). Personally I think they are great a decent Silva compass to the same level is almost as expensive and twice as difficult to read. Rudders Chris Rudders! If you're going to open the digital compass debate please talk to the blade manufacturers about making a decent blade for the right cost. My last conversation with John Clardidge informed me that that the rule prohibiting sheathing the blade with glass allowed all sorts of carbon reinforcement/lead weighting that you like, (a coach and horses sprang to mind). The current rule allows pretty much everything the argument put against sheathing the last time this came up at an AGM (people are going to have carbon rudders etc). |
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| Author: Rory Paton | Reply ID: 893 |
| Updated Rules published | Date
Posted: 31 Jul 10 22:08 |
| Merlin Rockets have the following: (b) Electronic aids are prohibited except that a Merlin-Rocket may use an electronic digital compass with chronograph (timer and/or clock). The compass must be entirely self-contained with either an internal battery and/or solar power. The compass shall have no external connections. This includes power supply and data inputs, such as wind information, boat speed or navigational features. It shall not have the ability to compute correlations between time, compass and VMG. Does anyone have any arguments against something similar in the Firefly class? It is too late to put into the rules this year but we could add easily next year. Or would you prefer, like the Lasers, to outlaw any electronic compass completely? We all know that the basic tack-tick type is quite widely used, we are considering an amendment to the SIs to allow their use at the nationals. |
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| Author: Chris Guy | Reply ID: 894 |
| Updated Rules published | Date
Posted: 01 Aug 10 07:52 |
| Chris, Wording looks good and covers what we want to prevent. Cheers Will |
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| Author: Will Mason | Reply ID: 896 |
| Updated Rules published | Date
Posted: 01 Aug 10 17:30 |
| Thumbs up from me :) | |
| Author: Andrew Mcleish | Reply ID: 897 |
